Curse

StandardAI · Jun 01, 2005, 01:57 PM // 13:57

You guys love to just skip over everything don't you, We have NO PROBLEM WITH BEATING THE GAME TO GET SKILLS, But beating it a second, third, and fourth time should not be required to keep up with the meta game. The devs do not even play their own game, most of the pve people who are against the uas button do not partake in PvP, havn't beaten the game, have no reason to unlock skills, or don't understand anything behind PvP.

The Virago · Jun 01, 2005, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by xaanix

Well, contrary to your belief, nearly every competitive gamer IS making an issue of the grind. I do, as well as nearly everyone i know in my guild and other top guilds.

This is called 'empirical evidence. What you need to make a point is called 'objective evidence'.

Example of usage:

There are no 'Top Guilds' (objective) in PvP playing this game. There are, however, many 'Top Guilds' (empirical) in PvP playing this game.

The reason I posted this , was to demonstrate by way of example both the point and the concept.

The 'Top Guilds' (objective) have either ignored this game, do not know about this game, or chosen not to leave what they're doing presently to try it out.

The 'Top Guilds' (empirical) here should thank their stars this is the case.

'Top Guilds' (objective) don't whine about what it takes to win. They just do it. That's why they're 'Top Guilds' (objective) and not 'Top Guilds' (empirical).

Get it?

eventhorizen · Jun 01, 2005, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Why force them to farm skills & runes when they don't want to?
How would it ruin the game to only have those who want to do PvE, do PvE?
Truly, I don't see the problem.

Thats just it my slightly dim friend, those who want almost every single thing in the game right away without having to go through the entire game to unlock it all can fire up a PvP only character fighting in PvP only ladders with almost everything that is accessible to the players of the full game.

A.net, im sure the majority of the playerbase has noticed although obviously you have not, has not created a PvP game with hints of Role Play on the side, or an RPG with hints of PvP at the side. A.net has created a game where whether you like it not you the 2 aspects are closely linked, interwoven, and support each other and rely upon each other to make the game happen. You fight and quest to increase/improve your skills and abilities.

Now if you simply slice the game in two you will destroy it. Enough people might still play one part of the game enough to keep it alive, but GW will be dead, and whatever is left wont last long at all.

What my suggestion did was give a point in playing through the 'full game' the PvE - PvP - PvE attitude, that point was the extra bonuses you can only get through PvE, elites and runes.
It would give the full version of the game a bit more competitive meat than PvP only, yes thats true, thats also what the developers aim for this damn game is. So what my suggestion was is too simply give PvP only characters almost everything, but limiting from them a few top end abilites or items that you can gain access to by playing the whole, full, PvE containing game.

Just because you dont particularly enjoy a certain aspect of this game doesnt mean that makers should make that whole aspect irrelevant to PvP, and hand you every thing you desire on a silver platter at the expense of competition, hence point, in the PvE aspect of this game.

If you dont want to PvE you dont have to, but then youll never quite be able to make quite as strong a character as me, although you might easilly be a more skilled player than me, and we will never fight each other so youll never see the slight imbalance, read bonus I get for PvE-ing.

That was my suggestion, sorry you dislike/insulted/rediculed it, but imodest as I am I personally think thats a better answer than splitting the game into PvE and PvP or giving every single thing to PvP only builds..

A difference of opinion it would seem, but I ask you not to be quite so rediculing of me next time you disagree with me. Its called manners.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grimpaw

As for skill points... Does anyone see why we need skill points versus just purchasing skills (at increasing cost)? It doesn't seem like we need two mechanisms to slow down skill acquisition. I'm not even sure why we need to slow down skill acquisition at all, since having a diversity of skills only increases replayability and improves the metagame.

I think its a method of spreading out the current available content, both in PvE items skills and gear, as well as PvP builds, over as long a period as possible.
If it cost people money then all skills could be unlocked via a trader a lot quicker by a lot more people than by EXP - skill point - skill. This means a.net has more time not only to plan the next big chapter, but that they have more time to spend on other thing.

Basiclly if the game was running out of new ideas, builds etc. after 2-3 months then a.net would be pushed to consider the newest chapter earlier to offset boredom, there would possibly be less bug fixing or content/patch checking, possibly worse performance due to dodgy coding not being fixed etc...

Ensign · Jun 01, 2005, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grimpaw

equipment is a real issue and so is RP character inflexibility.

Well equipment is an issue to a degree. Getting a +15% weapon might be a real pain, but +13% max rares are fairly straightforward. Staves would be an issue if they weren't available from collectors.

The problem equipment is still the Superior Runes and a couple specific upgrades (+20% enchanting, +5 vampiric), but RP characters actually come out ahead there since they can trade for said items, at least in theory, while PvP characters need to have those unlocked.

I haven't thought of weapons and armor as being a problem, though, as those are generally available to everyone. The problem (surprise!) is the stuff that needs to be unlocked.

I don't mind having to jump around and buy the skills I need to run a particular PvP guy. What I do mind is having to run 3 (or more) characters through all of the PvE in order to have enough skill points to unlock what I need. I'm seriously considering making a throwaway character just to unlock crap with, but I have zero patience for that at this point. I've already run through most of the PvE twice now, covering four classes, and while I have a bit of a buffer to buy skills on those guys it isn't enough to make me comfortable switching secondaries and blowing 8 skill points to make a PvP build for the other classes - I mean, that's eight hours worth of skill point grind, plus diminishing returns that'll make it worse each time I do it.

Oh, and I'd have to run around the mountains with my gimp to the middle of nowhere and drop a bunch of items on the ground and spam capture signet in the hopes of getting a key skill.

I think I'll pass on that.

Peace,
-CxE

Saerden · Jun 01, 2005, 05:39 PM // 17:39

The Reason why im for UAS is simple. It is already in the game. The button is in plain View. Just hold your mouse over it and click it for 500-1000h - or just hire someone from a third world country to do it while you enjoy an single player RPG (or your Real life). Dont know anyone? People are selling this service on ebay and other sites already. So how many of those who keep flaming and insulting everything that is against grind are working for them? A flamebait maybe? NOW NOW NOW crowd= i want to cure cancer NOW NOW NOW. Bleh these instant gratification kidies who expect to be able to buy a game and get a grindfest right out of the box without earning it by complaining for 100dreds of hours make me sick. Did you EARN this box by 500 hours of field labour? Work for your right to grind.

You dont earn anything by enduring pain. besides being called stupid.

im for UAS (or unlock all in less then 30h, and without repeating content) because GW may then be the first popular MMO game without an special entry on weLevelj004ca$$.com

(Im a PVE/Grind player btw... its just that GW fails as a grind game without UBAR, RARE, COOL rewards... so let me have the parts that work flawlessly without working for it. 500-1000h @ 5E/per h=> 2.500-5.000 Euro. If i was one of those "EARN EARN EARN" people, id got a Mcjob. No matter how good the pvp part is, i surely can get more rewarding things with 2500 Euro+)

(Note: its against the TOS to buy / sell ingame content for real cash.)

Barkam · Jun 01, 2005, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Hardcore gamers will always be the most 'skilled' players, with or without UAS. There is no 'grind', only time invested learning how to play well. With an UAS you cheat yourself out of learning time, and then you will complain that hardcore gamers are STILL better than you.

That's funny. My PvP skills tend to go to the crapper the longer I stay in PvE. Sigh. People need to understand that PvE is too easy where mobs are too dumb to react. Situations in PvP is waaaaaaaaaay different than that found in PvE. A very basic example is AoE's very usefulness in PvE while in PvP it is a complete waste, well except for HoH of course because you are fightning that mob called, Ghostly Hero. To say that you need to go through PvE to learn how to PvP shows lack of understanding of the game and PvP mechanics.

Celes Tial · Jun 02, 2005, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barkam

That's funny. My PvP skills tend to go to the crapper the longer I stay in PvE. Sigh. People need to understand that PvE is too easy where mobs are too dumb to react. Situations in PvP is waaaaaaaaaay different than that found in PvE. A very basic example is AoE's very usefulness in PvE while in PvP it is a complete waste, well except for HoH of course because you are fightning that mob called, Ghostly Hero. To say that you need to go through PvE to learn how to PvP shows lack of understanding of the game and PvP mechanics.

I was referring to learning your skills, not learning how to PvP. Combos, the exact differences in effect between 5 and 10 attribute points for a particular skill, some non-obvious uses not pointed out in the skill description... you learn every skill. Very valuable knowledge. To figure out that static AoEs that can be easily walked out of are useless in PvP you only need common sense, though. Just like a lot of other facts.

And if your PvP skills 'go to the crapper' during the time you spend in PvE... uh... what about doing both the same day? It even helps concentration, as the human mind becomes less effective after hours and hours of doing the same thing.

As for paying to be effective in PvP - in other MMOs, you could spend 300 bucks on some uber item of d00m that actually makes a huge difference in PvP. Here the difference between average and awesome is minimal.

Celes Tial · Jun 02, 2005, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

2) Celes Tial, UAS would kill the PvE for those who don't want to be there. I don't want to do PvP, I only want to do PvE, and I'll keep PvE'ing even if there's a UAS button.
As I've said, getting the people who don't want to do PvE out of PvE is my reason for supporting UAS in PvP. As I've said I really don't see the value in forcing people to do PvE when they don't want to. I've not seen anyone actually answer that question either.

How many times do I have to repeat it? Is it really so hard to understand?

PVE IS FUN FOR US BECAUSE OF THE PVP REWARDS. WE DONT PVE TO KILL MONSTERS. THERE IS NO RAID CONTENT. NO PVE END GAME. THE PVE FUN IS UNLOCKING.

THERE ARE NO PVE REWARDS FOR PVE PLAY. IF ALL SKILLS ARE A BUTTON CLICK AWAY, PVE WILL BE AS EXCITING AS A PAIR OF OLD SOCKS.

Thus, you DO kill PvE play with an UAS button.

I and many others totally agree that PVPers should not need to do something they hate to unlock their skills. Which is why we support an 'unlock through PvP only content' system.

Numa Pompilius · Jun 02, 2005, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celes Tial

How many times do I have to repeat it? Is it really so hard to understand?

PVE IS FUN FOR US BECAUSE OF THE PVP REWARDS. WE DONT PVE TO KILL MONSTERS. THERE IS NO RAID CONTENT. NO PVE END GAME. THE PVE FUN IS UNLOCKING.

Who the F is WE?!

You sure don't speak for me, and I play PvE exclusively!

Quote:

THERE ARE NO PVE REWARDS FOR PVE PLAY. IF ALL SKILLS ARE A BUTTON CLICK AWAY, PVE WILL BE AS EXCITING AS A PAIR OF OLD SOCKS.

Thus, you DO kill PvE play with an UAS button.

No, a UAS button kills it for people like you, who don't want to play PvE, and do it only as a grind to play PvP. It doesn't kill it for people like me, who actually like it and are totally uninterested in playing PvP, ever.

You've proven my point without realising it.

Saerden · Jun 02, 2005, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celes Tial

How many times do I have to repeat it? Is it really so hard to understand?

PVE IS FUN FOR US BECAUSE OF THE PVP REWARDS. WE DONT PVE TO KILL MONSTERS. THERE IS NO RAID CONTENT. NO PVE END GAME. THE PVE FUN IS UNLOCKING.

THERE ARE NO PVE REWARDS FOR PVE PLAY. IF ALL SKILLS ARE A BUTTON CLICK AWAY, PVE WILL BE AS EXCITING AS A PAIR OF OLD SOCKS.

Thus, you DO kill PvE play with an UAS button.

I and many others totally agree that PVPers should not need to do something they hate to unlock their skills. Which is why we support an 'unlock through PvP only content' system.

We, Saerden, totally believe that you are wrong. The changes you proposed will kill the PvP part of the game. A major part of the competitive aspect of PvP, according to our opinion, is self-improvement. If you no longer need to improve your mind and body to be able to withstand the parts of the game that are "as exiting as a pair of old socks", then you will get weak. And the weak shall perish, only the true, hard, ENDURING Players shall be in the top 10. Only the fittest shall Rule. Since PvP is close to what one can call "remotely fun", allowing people to improve their toolset through PvP will make self improvement REDUNDANT. This totally goes against the vision of Arenanet: your mental and physical skills (to withstand pain) should decide the outcome of a battle, not (leisure) time spent.

/pluralis majestatis off
/sarcasm off
ERROR, resetting default mode:
sarcasm: on

Celes Tial · Jun 02, 2005, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

You sure don't speak for me, and I play PvE exclusively!

No, a UAS button kills it for people like you, who don't want to play PvE, and do it only as a grind to play PvP. It doesn't kill it for people like me, who actually like it and are totally uninterested in playing PvP, ever.

I speak for those who enjoy both PvE and PvP, which I estimate is about half the playerbase. Besides, if I hated PvE, why would I care about it being 'killed' by an UAS button? That doesnt make any sense whatsoever.

The pure PvE'ers are usually the ones who post they are quitting after a couple weeks because there is 'nothing left for them to do'. Seeing as they leave rather quickly, they are a minority. I wonder how long you will stay

The second part is funny, because I DO enjoy PvE, and I dont consider it a grind. I very much look forward to new missions in upcoming expansions. I dont farm, I take things slowly, and I have fun. Unlocking new skills is a thrill and excitement, but I dont 'rush' through the content to get one particular skill so I can return to PvP. Most of my guild plays and enjoys GW the same way.

Without realizing it, you have proven MY point, because people who run out of arguments tend to agressively pretend they 'know' the other person so they can pick their posts apart and 'prove' themselves right based on false assumptions. And in the process, they start to make absolutely no sense.

Saerden · Jun 02, 2005, 03:24 PM // 15:24

IF PVE =! PVE , Celes is right.

Celes, you obviously dont care about story, exploring new areas, fighting difficult AI controlled enemies, etc.

How about the following proposal:
By doing the otherwise boring PvE - Did you actually notice what the boring story was about?) you can unlock the following:

1. cooking recipes
2. Pictures of semi-naked, hot chicks
3. Rap music
4. New, cool vehicles in Halo 2

A compromise we can all live with?

PS i dont believe you actually ment both posts seriously.If you did, you just called GW a failed, broken game - and the designers incompetent.
So did everyone who spouts the "UAS kills PvE enjoyment" argument. If there is no point besides unlocking PvE-unrelated things (aka PvE is NOT FUN), why design it in the first place? If the PvE is pointless without the unlocking part, why botter with a story or great scenery, noone cares anyway.

Sorry if i said the same thing a couple posts above, i just did not consider the possibility that people actually could admit thinking the same and still stay with Guild Wars.

Loviatar · Jun 02, 2005, 03:25 PM // 15:25

*steps forward bows head and admits to one and all I AM PVE ONLY*

having admitted it i have a character with 75+ hours of simply looking around enjoying the game and will still be playing when the next chapter comes out (or not if i get tired of it for awhile)

i see no point in burning through the game as fast as i can.

when i find something and get a rune or upgrade i am happy to find it but it is a bonus bit of fun not a reward for farming

sort of the difference between 2 people at the beach with metal detectors with one going as fast as they can and the only thing that counts is the amount of loot in his bucket

and the other who is enjoying the surf the girls the breeze the sun everything and suddenly jumps when his detector buzzes because he was paying no attention to that part of what he was doing

one is enjoying the experience for itself
the other only sees it as a way to an end

Numa Pompilius · Jun 02, 2005, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celes Tial

I speak for those who enjoy both PvE and PvP

You just stated above that the only reason "we" play PvE is to unlock skills and get items for PvP. Other than that PvE is as "exciting as old socks".

Quote:

The pure PvE'ers are usually the ones who post they are quitting after a couple weeks because there is 'nothing left for them to do'.--- I wonder how long you will stay

Yes, of course I will leave when I've tired of the PvE.

Just like you won't play any PvE once you've unlocked the stuff you want for PvP, and will leave when you've tired of the PvP.

Quote:

The second part is funny, because I DO enjoy PvE, and I dont consider it a grind.

You enjoy old socks?

Quote:

I very much look forward to new missions in upcoming expansions. I dont farm, I take things slowly, and I have fun. Unlocking new skills is a thrill and excitement, but I dont 'rush' through the content to get one particular skill so I can return to PvP. Most of my guild plays and enjoys GW the same way.
Without realizing it, you have proven MY point, because people who run out of arguments tend to agressively pretend they 'know' the other person so they can pick their posts apart and 'prove' themselves right based on false assumptions. And in the process, they start to make absolutely no sense.

Uh huh.
In case you have forgotten, you argued that:

"PVE IS FUN FOR US BECAUSE OF THE PVP REWARDS. WE DONT PVE TO KILL MONSTERS. THERE IS NO RAID CONTENT. NO PVE END GAME. THE PVE FUN IS UNLOCKING.

THERE ARE NO PVE REWARDS FOR PVE PLAY. IF ALL SKILLS ARE A BUTTON CLICK AWAY, PVE WILL BE AS EXCITING AS A PAIR OF OLD SOCKS."

Now you're suddenly saying that you enjoy PvE for itself, just like I do.

So which is it?

Celes Tial · Jun 02, 2005, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saerden

2. Pictures of semi-naked, hot chicks

A compromise we can all live with?

Let me think... hmmm. No. I'm not lesbian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saerden

PS i dont believe you actually ment both posts seriously.If you did, you just called GW a failed, broken game - and the designers incompetent.
So did everyone who spouts the "UAS kills PvE enjoyment" argument. If there is no point besides unlocking PvE-unrelated things (aka PvE is NOT FUN), why design it in the first place? If the PvE is pointless without the unlocking part, why botter with a story or great scenery, noone cares anyway.

You have an impressive imagination. Really. You should do something with it... ever considered a career as a writer?

I have yet to see anyone state the pure PvE is not fun, and poorly done. The problem is, for MMO standards, it is SHORT. Which is fine, a lot of great offline games have less content. However, it doesnt entertain most pure PvE'ers long enough to stay for months, unless a new expansion is released. The Devs did a great job with the no monthly fees there. Pure PvE'ers can finish the content in a couple days to a few weeks, then buy the next expansion. It works out for them and it works out for Arenanet.

Now after going through all the non-PvP content, the PvP based rewards are what still makes the PvE aspect of the game fun after 50-200 hours. Which is why I still play and enjoy PvE after doing all quests, exploring, and finishing the storyline. While others who dont care about PvP quit.

And an UAS button would kill THAT. Namely, my next 500 hours of PvE fun until I have unlocked most skills. Yep, FUN, cause I dont grind and see no need to.

If you still dont understand that, then I can only shake my head and stop caring whether or not people have any ability to listen or discuss without getting offensive.

Celes Tial · Jun 02, 2005, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Now you're suddenly saying that you enjoy PvE for itself, just like I do.

So which is it?

Indeed, as stated above, the story, quests and exploring were fun by themselves when I did them the first time. For about... 120 hours. Now, unlocking skills is why I STILL enjoy PvE. For more hundreds of hours.

You can dig for possible contradictions all you want, and you'll probably find some, cause (DUH!) I'm not a native english speaker. I guess I could find an expert to go over all my posts and find/correct exactly the word that expresses exactly what I meant exactly the way I meant it, but... no, I dont care to.

Peace.

Saerden · Jun 02, 2005, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Oh well im beaten.

/me sobs

If there are so many people who cant find anyhing else to do besides asking for the PvE linear story part of a game to remain fun for the 100th time through it, this world is doomed anyway.

*edit: since you didnt like my pseudowitty way of writing:

Why does AN care if all the "true" PvE players quit after the second time through? Thats why i am suprised by the "artificial content". Less Server load, and they will have beautiful memories haunting them till they finally get an expansion. "More content for a game i enjoyed 3 months ago" is the best argument to sell one.

TiC · Jun 02, 2005, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saerden

If there are so many people who cant find anyhing else to do besides asking for the PvE linear story part of a game to remain fun for the 100th time through it, this world is doomed anyway.

I can think of worse ways to pass your time - just think about all the time spent in other MMORPGs where you perform the same redundant tasks over and over until your eyes bleed...

NiknudStunod · Jun 02, 2005, 11:23 PM // 23:23

this game was billed as everyone being on a equal playing field and where skill is more important then time played. All the UAS button does is unlock the skills for that character. You can not bring the skills you get from a UAS button into pve. The pve players will still get there fun from unlocking skills and runes and the pvp player can completely ignore the pve part of the game. The only people that a UAS button would effect is the elite grinders who want any advantage they can get over everyone else. So much for skill over time spent and being casual friendly to everyone.

Xellos · Jun 02, 2005, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Awww, Ensign doesn't want to do ascenscion runs :P The games really going downward for a number of reasons I guess.